Kristina Logan: Glass artist

Kristina Logan, while teaching a glass workshop in Murano, Italy

Kristina Logan lives in New Hampshire and is a professional artist making fine art glass beads and other glass work. Her work is in many collections including the Renwick Gallery of the Smithsonian American Art Museum, and the Boston Museum of Fine Art. She is a leader and teacher in her field. I like her enthusiasm and that she embraced a new direction which lead to her career in glass. And her work is elegant.

Glass beads by Kristina

H: PLEASE DISCUSS YOUR CHILDHOOD AND FORMATIVE YEARS AS THEY RELATE TO YOU BEING  A CREATIVE INDIVIDUAL.

K: Most formative, I was raised by a single mom who was a Maker. She did fashion illustration for newspapers. In our house always, we were making. It was 2 dimensional: drawing. My grandmother was a seamstress, my Grandfather did faux painting for churches. We come from this lineage of making with your hands. As a little kid I hoped that I could make things with my hands for a living. I was known as the “best drawer” in school, tagged as “the artist kid”. I saw that [my mom] could draw and put food on the table.

A sampling of glass stemware

I am really thankful to my mom. She didn’t follow convention. She would say, “Do whatever you want, the money will figure itself out along the way”. Money was never the end goal. 

It worked. And it’s worked in a way that I’m really happy with what I do. I feel a great sense of satisfaction with being a maker. It is profound. I teach a lot of people and what they do is a hobby. I have this really elevated view of “Hobby” because it is something that you love, and it brings you joy. I have a very high belief in things that are made with your hands.

H: DID YOU STUDY FORMALLY AFTER HIGH SCHOOL?

Kristina in her studio with tools of her trade. Her connection with sculpture is clear.

K: I went to the University of New Hampshire. I have a Bachelors of Fine Arts with a concentration in sculpture. I was afraid of color. It’s funny, I work with color now. My senior thesis ended up being carved wooden figures.

I joke that my work develops over geologic time. I percolate. I make shifts and changes that are very subtle. They are very important to me, but they might be viewed as a tiny little shift. Instead of being wildly spontaneous I think I dig depth into my work.

Kristina’s work now includes lost wax glass jars
Glass bead with silver work

H: IS THERE A WORD THAT DESCRIBES YOU, OR A PARTICULAR SKILL OR TALENT?

K: Patience. It is kind of a super-power, and a weakness. Patience brings me to a kind of quiet, or calm. “In the Zone”. Freedom. The outside world gets really quiet. It is not something that I’m enduring, it’s not a negative. It’s more of a place of Peace, and Quiet. I think I’ve cultivated it over time.

But as a weakness, is patience slowing me down? Keeping me from being spontaneous at times? Maybe. I’m proud of Patience. It is a place of comfort, for me.

H: SO AFTER YOU GOT YOUR DEGREE…

K: I worked at a cafe, had a little studio and was carving wood on the side. I knew nothing about glass art. [A friend] said, “Why not work for an artist and make money?” So I worked in Dan Daley’s studio for four years, learned a lot about glass. It was a different world, super high-end. 

Using fire to create glass beads

Glass seemed too “shiny”, too colorful. I wasn’t attracted to it. But I liked learning about it. I liked the technical aspects. Then I saw somebody flame-working, and thought it could be fun. I thought I could make glass beads for adorning my sculptures. Then I started making a little money. People were excited about them, so it ended up being a sense of freedom.

I had a very simple, kind of primal, connection to beads. Then I realized that beads connect people all over the world, cultures. There is an importance to this. I became invested in a bead as a sculptural object. Patience and steeping of information, like a tea bag steeps, slowly learning and learning. Becoming proud, that I fit into this continuum of beads in the world.

I wasn’t trained as a jeweler, so I came at it in this sculptural way. These little tiny things were sculptures to me, and I was not in the decorative arts at all.

I learned through asking questions of other people. I go at things today that are maybe not conventional. I would design, and then figure out how to make it. This was before the Internet. It was this funny little process. Working in 3 dimensions, there’s something about the technical challenges that I love. That light up my brain. Like how to fit things together.

There is power in creative making. Time spent on a piece, whether somebody really sees it or not, it’s at least important to the maker. I think that those are the pieces that last in the world. 

H: PLEASE TALK ABOUT YOUR INSPIRATION AND PROCESS. DO YOU HAVE ROUTINES OR EXERCISES, OR THINGS THAT YOU DO?

Example of the sculptural nature of Kristina’s work

K: Inspiration specifically, I get from architecture, and ancient objects. I like traveling. We went to Barcelona. My goodness! Talk about creative energy. Big spaces, strangely, I find really inspirational. As well as nature. You know how nature has mathematics? That part of nature. I rejuvenate myself by walking outside in the woods, the mountains. 

It is important to me to make things with my hands for a living. It’s how I communicate  to the world. It’s how I communicate with other people. It’s how I leave my mark after I’m not on the planet any more. The things I made will still be there, at least for a period of time. All that brings me great peace.

H: NOW, I’LL ASK THE OPPOSITE, WHICH IS CREATIVE BLOCK. DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT?

Kristina’s work requires focus and attention to detail

K: For me its almost like problem solving. Because I make functional objects, beads, I can always keep my hands busy. 

So, I’m thinking of something that is percolating in the back of my mind. Is that a block? I’m not there yet. I make what I can make. I think the best when my hands are busy. I’m never idle. “Block” never keeps me from working. The work continues, and I don’t wait for inspiration. I work through it. If you keep on working, for me, ideas will come. In the process of making. 

The meticulous nature of her pieces is evident

I’ll have to solve problems along the way. Design problems. But work begets work. I like to have a lot of the work around. All this smaller work, it inspires a larger piece.

H: WHAT ARE YOUR GUIDING PHILOSOPHIES OR MOTTOS; WHICH TIES INTO PERSONAL QUALITIES. AND ARE YOU AN INTROVERT OR EXTROVERT?

K: Introvert or extrovert… I think I have both. When teaching I just teach honestly what I know. I love hearing people’s stories, I love helping people with something they love to do. I really care about my students.

Kristina experiments with form and design

But for me, in my work, I need to be alone, quiet, by myself in order to fully create.

For mottos and philosophies, I’m trying to make the best work I can possibly make. I care about putting as much of myself into the work as possible. It’s pretty simple…the philosophy: I care. It’s about that patience, that care, that responsibility to make what’s true to me. Inside my heart.

H: WHAT ARE THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES TO YOUR CREATIVE LIFE, AND HOW HAVE YOU DEALT WITH THEM? ALSO WHAT ARE THE BIGGEST REWARDS?

K: I think having kids, for both. The creative challenge was how to keep on making while having kids. And have the making not stop. It couldn’t stop. It was a great challenge, but I didn’t stop. 

Kristina’s new studio is much larger than when her children were young

It taught me a lot about perseverance, and not having the studio be “precious”. At one point I had an antique cradle in the studio. My son would take naps in there. There were toys on the floor. The art wasn’t secluded from the everyday household. It was part of life. I have good feelings about that. It was hard, but I wouldn’t change it.

H: DO YOU HAVE ANY ADVICE FOR CREATIVES?

K: I’d say: Make. Make. 

You learn by making, you learn by doing. It all boils down to that quiet moment of really making what makes your heart sing. It’s all about your own relationship with the making process. I think it is important.

To see more about Kristina you can visit her website at: kristinalogan.com

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John Walthier: Ceramic Artist

John is a ceramic artist living and working in Denver. His education in the visual arts, and in art history, influence his practice which is focused on fine art ceramics. John is also my brother.

John in his studio, Denver, CO.

H: PLEASE DISCUSS YOUR CHILDHOOD/FORMATIVE YEARS AS THEY RELATE TO YOUR DEVELOPMENT AS A CREATIVE ADULT.

Three things stand out from my late childhood when I reflect on formative influences. 

Watercolor of the Tucson desert, by John c. 1970’s

First, as a boy I camped a lot in the Arizona desert. There were pottery sherds scattered all over the land. I was impressed with those remnants of artwork created hundreds of years ago. They were all that remained of these people. Clay had permanence. And people didn’t just make functional clay objects. They decorated clay objects. Decoration – adding some expression of beauty – has been important throughout time.

Second, I read a lot about van Gogh when I was in high school. I was impressed by his dedication and hard work. Van Gogh transformed himself from an awful artist into a visionary artist through sustained effort.

John while traveling before college.

Third, right before college I rode a bicycle around Europe. I stopped in Florence, Italy for 6 weeks and saw amazing artistic creations, architecture, sculpture and painting. I thought making beauty at such a high level was the most valuable form of human activity possible. That experience inspired me to study art at the University of Arizona. 

I still believe creating beauty is extremely valuable and an inspirational way to spend one’s life. I believe you develop the skills to make art through hard work. You make mistakes. You struggle to improve. Slowly, gradually you do improve. Finally, I believe pieces of decorated clay may one day be some of the few remnants we, too, leave behind as a culture. Metal skyscrapers will rust. Concrete will break into dust. But 800 years from now some boy may pick up a few pieces of fired clay and look at the decorations closely.

Ceramic piece from John’s recent series, 2023

H: WHAT WAS YOUR BACKGROUND, TRAINING AND/OR EDUCATION WITH REGARD TO YOUR ART MEDIA AND CREATIVITY IN GENERAL?

I focused on drawing, painting and printmaking for my BFA program. My formal degree is in Art History as I’ve always had a strong interest in history and incorporating lessons from the past and other cultures into my creative activities.

Etching print by John, 1977

I picked up ceramics in 2017 – about 6 years ago. My wife and I wanted to try something that neither of us had ever done. I anticipated working almost exclusively on surface decoration. But the more I learned about ceramics and worked with the medium, the more I appreciated the lushness and pliability of the material, the way an artist can form clay into shapes, work with volume, and add textures as well as marks to the surface. There’s such a richness to ceramics as a material. I love it. I also love learning about ceramics and the way people in different regions, and at different points in time, have expressed themselves in clay. Virtually every civilization has utilized clay, and because fired clay is so permanent, a lot of those expressions still exist to this day. That’s another layer of richness that I value.

H: CAN YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR CREATIVE INSPIRATION AND PROCESS. DO YOU HAVE ROUTINES, EXERCISES OR OTHER PRACTICES THAT ENHANCE OR INFLUENCE YOUR CREATIVE PROCESS?

Process for recent ceramic series, see above. Step 1, done on an iPad,: line drawing on red layer over a black layer.

I have multiple sources that I tap for inspiration including travel, museum visits, and a couple of magazines. I typically travel to areas of artistic and/or historic interest, and make a point to seek out museums and artists in the area on any trip. I carry a sketchpad with me to jot down ideas. Nothing seems as helpful in switching on my focus as when I have a sketchbook in hand. I’ve begun sketching more extensively even when I’m not traveling. 

I write a blog on ceramics around the world (https://jtwceramics.com/blog/). I interact with many artists and scholars through that process and find inspiration in those conversations.

Step 2: “imitation white carving” on a layer over the red layer

In terms of exercises and routines, every three months I schedule a certain amount of work that I want to complete. I find a 3-month increment keeps me moving forward but also allows for the evolution of my interests. I’ve tried planning things out for an entire year and it just doesn’t give me enough flexibility – 6 months into my plan things have changed enough that the plan is obsolete. I break down my quarterly plan into monthly and weekly bits and then check off what I complete. It’s a habit I picked up during my professional career that served me well there. I find it helpful now that I spend much of my day focused on creative activities. I also find that I’m most productive in the morning, so I lump my highest priority creative goals into morning periods, leaving necessary but not necessarily fun activities for the afternoon and early evening.

H: HAVE YOU EXPERIENCED “CREATIVE BLOCK”? IF SO, WHAT FORM DOES IT TAKE? HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH IT?

All the time. My approach is to keep moving forward. I often think of a quote from the painter Chuck Close: “Inspiration is for amateurs. The rest of us just show up and get to work. If you wait around for the clouds to part and a bolt of lightening to strike you in the brain, you’re not going to make an awful lot of work. All the best ideas come out of the process; they come out of the work itself.”

Step 3: final sketch on iPad after hiding the red layer.

H: DO YOU HAVE GUIDING “MOTTOS” OR LIFE PHILOSOPHIES THAT HAVE IMPACTED YOUR APPROACH TO YOUR WORK?

I like the Chuck Close quote above. It inspires me to keep pounding away, trying to improve my craftsmanship.

Something the ceramicist Ron Korczynski once said also inspires me to keep creating, but in a different sense. “The best things can’t be told because they transcend thought. Those things we most enjoy cannot be explained: a flower blooming, the touch of a loved one’s hand, a baby’s smile.” I would add: a work of art.

H: WHAT PERSONAL QUALITIES DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE THAT HAVE HELPED YOU ACHIEVE YOUR CREATIVE GOALS? ARE YOU AN INTROVERT OR AN EXTROVERT?

John with a recent ceramic vessel, 2023.

I’m a hard worker. That may not sound particularly important, but that quality has helped me improve. I have to work at creating beauty. I make a lot of mistakes and toss out many failures. I was inspired by the artwork in Florence, Italy, and I hope that if I work hard I can also add something to the cultural conversation.

I’m an introvert. I crave time to work creatively which tends to be quiet, solitary time. 

H: WHAT HAVE BEEN YOUR BIGGEST CREATIVE CHALLENGES AND HOW DID YOU DEAL WITH THEM?

I set aside artistic pursuits for many years while raising a family. It wasn’t an uncreative time at all, but the nature of creativity was directed more toward family experiences and my professional career. My kids are now grown and I’ve retired from my professional career, so I can return to my interest in art and creating beautiful, interesting things. It feels good. I lost many years of practice and the discipline of working with my hands. I’m still making up for lost ground. But as they say, “The best time to plant a tree is 30 years ago; the next best time is today.”

H: WHAT HAVE BEEN THE BIGGEST REWARDS?

Sketch, self-portrait, c. 1970’s.

I think there’s tremendous value in creating beauty and adding that to the world. Adding something, even something modest, feels good. Honestly, if I wasn’t creating something artistic I don’t know what I would do. My life would be so empty.

H: WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE NEW ARTISTS/CREATIVES?

I think people inclined to create art are driven by impulse. That impulse is beyond science and reason cannot explain it. We struggle to adequately capture it with language itself. The impulse is what drove cavemen to decorate cave walls. It’s what drove Mimbres tribeswomen to paint designs on their clay pots. That creative impulse is why people around the world through all time scratch on things and carve designs and apply color to objects and make music. Creating beauty is fundamental to those who feel it. Don’t let that die – find SOMETHING to work with in your life that sustains your fundamental creative impulse. There will be something, and you must make time for it. It improves you and those around you. If you let that creative impulse die, or atrophy, you will have less enjoyment and purpose in your life. It’s work, but it’s good work.

For more information about John and his work see his website at: https://jtwceramics.com

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Cynthia Haveson Veloric, PhD in Creativity; Art Historian, Environmental Advocate

Cynthia Haveson Veloric, PhD

Cynthia lives in Philadelphia and has embraced her creative life, recently earning her PhD in Creativity from the University of the Arts, Philadelphia. Her dissertation was on Ecological Artists changing Consciousness about Climate issues. She now works as an Adjunct Professor in that program, curates museum shows, is involved with climate policy, and creates her own art work.

H: PLEASE BRIEFLY DISCUSS YOUR CHILDHOOD/FORMATIVE YEARS AS THEY RELATE TO YOUR DEVELOPMENT AS A CREATIVE ADULT.

C: I was fortunate, my parents encouraged me to learn and develop skills in dance, painting, and piano. My grandmother took me to the Philadelphia Orchestra. My father introduced me to opera, and I had the opportunity to sing in the children’s chorus in La Boheme when I was eleven years old. I acted in a few school plays, and a competition at a local professional theater. Those experiences instilled a love of performing arts that has stayed with me my whole life. I enjoyed being in my high-school’s speech and debate club. We went to national competition twice. As a teenager I found a summer volunteer job at the State Museum of New Jersey. That was the unofficial beginning of my decades-long museum work experience.

“Cozy Onions”, Pastel by Cynthia Veloric

H: YOUR BACKGROUND IS UNIQUE IN THAT YOU HAVE A PhD IN CREATIVITY, WITH A FOCUS ON ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES. PLEASE DISCUSS HOW YOUR EDUCATION AND TRAINING RELATES TO YOUR PERSONAL CREATIVITY.

C: Creativity was just a natural mode for me since childhood though I wouldn’t have labeled it as such. Raised in suburbia in a traditional family, I always found outlets that transcended the normative model. For example, as a teen in the 1970s, I took yoga, and organized the first bottle recycling drive in my high school. When it came to selecting a college, I knew I needed both strong academics and an art program, with easy access to fine and performing arts. Living in Washington, D.C. during college and afterwards opened my eyes to the intersectionality of politics, arts, and public service. 

H: PLEASE TALK ABOUT INSPIRATION AND PRACTICES THAT ENHANCE OR INFLUENCE YOUR CREATIVE PROCESS.

C: I worked in art museums for many years and was inspired by tremendously talented and brilliant people. These included curators, educators, and exhibit designers. And of course the art that was installed there was a regular source of wonder and intellectual engagement.

Exhibit curated by Cynthia: “Risky Beauty: Aesthetics and Climate Change”

As for environmental advocacy, my volunteer job at the Clean Air Council in Philadelphia introduced me to a group of dedicated people who use legal/political/social paths to generate a greener, safer future. My niche there was to write opinion letters to newspaper editors about the most pressing environmental topic of the week. I guess you could say that writing those letters and getting them published was a weekly act of creativity. 

H: HAVE YOU EXPERIENCED “CREATIVE BLOCK”? IF SO, WHAT FORM DOES IT TAKE? HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH IT?

C: I can’t remember being “creatively blocked” for any length of time. If I have an inspiration, or a goal, or a job to do, I simply sit down and begin writing, or sketch, or pick up the phone, or network with someone with whom I can share good ideas.

Cynthia, on far right, with fellow creatives at the “Risky Beauty” opening..

H: DO YOU HAVE GUIDING “MOTTOS” OR LIFE PHILOSOPHIES THAT HAVE IMPACTED YOUR APPROACH TO YOUR WORK?

C: Yes, a few. 

1.       The opportunity you desire may not come at the time or place that you envision, but it will eventually happen, if only through the side or back door. 

2.       Coincidences or chance meetings with certain people mean something significant. See where they lead.

3.       Work by collaboration. The combination of personalities, skills, and intentions leads to a better product. 

4.       Follow your gut instincts about who to network with and take the plunge. 

5.       Rejection is part of life. Focus on the achievements and move forward. 

Cynthia speaking at a the “Risky Beauty” opening..

H: WHAT PERSONAL QUALITIES DO YOU HAVE THAT HAVE HELPED YOU ACHIEVE YOUR CREATIVE GOALS? ARE YOU AN INTROVERT OR AN EXTROVERT?

C: When it comes to creative goals, I do not hesitate to reach out to strangers, especially if we have a common professional mission. There’s something about an arts or an environmental advocacy background that binds people together. I am comfortable speaking in the public sphere so no one would guess I’m an introvert socially. I shun large social gatherings, preferring to spend my free time with one or two special friends. 

H: WHAT HAVE BEEN YOUR BIGGEST CREATIVE CHALLENGES AND HOW DID YOU DEAL WITH THEM?

C: As a fine arts undergrad I developed the skills to copy old master paintings and draw realistically from a model. But I didn’t feel particularly creative or original. So I switched my major to art history. Problem solved! Curating art exhibitions is akin to putting jigsaw puzzles together. I need everyone’s cooperation in a timely manner—artists, gallery directors, art handlers, graphic designers. For the most part I’ve been fortunate in that regard.

“Oranges” by Cynthia Veloric

The biggest challenge is to convince museum or gallery directors to host my exhibitions! If one says NO, I keep pushing in other directions. At this juncture, I’ve had one particular exhibition shown in an art center, a science center, and am planning for next year in a university setting.

H: WHAT HAVE BEEN THE BIGGEST REWARDS?

C: Seeing my writing published in a magazine or academic publication, lecturing at a conference, curating an exhibition, interviewing artists for the Archives of American Art, jurying art shows, having my letters to the editor published, and completing a PHD as a senior citizen. One particular highlight was when I lectured to a group of about 100 art teachers at the Philadelphia Museum of Art.

H: WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE OTHER PEOPLE INTERESTED IN DEVELOPING THEIR CREATIVE LIFE?

C: Follow your instincts. Try out a few different creative outlets in your free time. Don’t be intimidated by others. Go to museums, films, concerts, dance performances, public lectures.

Cynthia can be contacted for copies of her CV at: cveloric@uarts.edu

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Kaitlin Meadows: Hospice Nurse/Creative Healer

Kaitlin’s life is a fascinating tale of innovative solutions, applied as she worked with creative individuals, and a life rich in relationships and positivity. She was 69 years old when I interviewed her in 2015 at Kaitlin’s Creative Cottage, a safe haven for women and young girls, victims of abuse. 

Kaitlin Meadows at her Creative Cottage, 2015

H: WHAT IS YOUR TRAINING AND EDUCATION?

K: I am trained as a Nurse and Archeologist. I got my Masters degree in Nursing, in rural communities and indigenous communities. And Masters in Archeology and Anthropology. I had at least as much to learn from the indigenous cultures that I wanted to serve, and I could offer them my services. It was a wonderful trade.

H: DID YOU WORK AS A NURSE?

K: Yes, I worked all over the California coastal areas and with the United Farm Workers. I was young and idealistic and thought I could make a really big difference. I got little tiny Grants here and there to do things, and develop programs. Sometimes the nursing part of me was treating the physiological, and the Archeologist/Anthropologist was treating the cultural issues. So it was a nice learning curve for me as well.

I retired from Nursing last year after 44 years. The last 20 years I worked with the Hospice community. I developed my own Hospice program where I worked with Cultural Creatives, people not able to fit into the normal standard grid of Hospice. They wanted to stay in their own homes, they had artistic collections; they wanted to be productive in their creative capacities until the end of their lives. 

I worked out a way to do reconciliation and reconnection. Lots of artists are disenfranchised from family for one reason or another. They prioritize, sometimes, their creativity above some of the structural elements of family. I wanted to get that healed up before they passed. 

I also wanted to get their creative and cultural legacy in good order, so it could be passed forward as a part of their legacy. I do poetry readings, and create chat-books with people, and organize their journals and diaries, and expunge certain parts that would be hurtful to others, and recreate them in altered books, and things like that. It was important to take the gifts I’d learned in my own creativity and try to help people transition (through death) as the creative beings they wanted to be.

I had an opportunity to re-create myself, with the traditional education I’d had, to do non-traditional work. So it was a great melding.

H: AT 18 MONTHS YOUR PARENTS GAVE YOU TO A CONVENT. CAN YOU DESCRIBE YOUR JOURNEY AS IT FLOWED FROM THAT? YOU ARE VERY CREATIVE, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

K: It’s not uncommon in a certain brand of Irish immigrant, my story. Of course you won’t hear about it because most of those young women grow up to be cloistered nuns, and their story isn’t known. I happen to have escaped, and had a different life. 

A work table with inspiration and items made by clients, adorn her space

A certain kind of very loyal and generational Catholic had some guilt about the famine, and escaping to the United States, and not dying with your kin. You needed to pay that debt, so many people tithe their children to the church. Most that were tithed felt this was their greatest salvation, we ate three meals a day.

It was a very rigid and confined atmosphere. As a very imaginative young girl, I had to live interiorly. I lived very much in my own head, and I took from what I gleaned in the Convent library. Imaginative tales and wove them together with lives of the Saints. I gave solace to lots of young girls who came in the middle of the night as a result of disasters, and were having a very awkward transition. We sat in a tree well, I was just whispering, making little stories up, using things in the dirt to make little vignettes of different kinds. 

I realized pretty early on, I had a way of really being able to help people transport themselves out of whatever was hurting, causing them grief.

H: WHERE DID THE ARTIST COME FROM, DID YOU HAVE FORMAL TRAINING?

K: Because I majored secondarily in Anthropology/Archeology I took lots of classes in ceramic making, weaving, in order to understand the cultural motifs. I had a passion for that. I developed a vocabulary to go into indigenous communities as a sort of “novitiate of craft” rather than an Anthropologist that had a clipboard and questions. 

Kaitlin enjoying her own art practice

I said, “I’m having a hard time with this glaze, and your traditional culture has a wonderful slip that you make. I would just love to apprentice myself to you.” I found that sitting with people that were creative, their stories came out in a very different language than if I used my scientific hat.

H: WHAT IS YOUR CURRENT INSPIRATION AND CREATIVE PROCESS?

K: The women I work with are the most powerful inspiration. Many are working actively, day-to-day, to re-invent themselves. And I work with little girls, 7-12 years old in a project that I built called “Girls with Heart”. They come from backgrounds much more storied than my own. They carry deep and profound woundings that could define them for the rest of their lives if someone doesn’t intercede early and often to say, “How can we make something beautiful of this?”

Hospice patients have given me such wonderment about their ability to transition to the next phase with optimism and hope and a sense of real accomplishment.

I’ve always been a storyteller. In indigenous cultures, very often their entire cultural history is embedded in stories, so it behooved me early on to allow myself to have some imaginative courage, and stories; to understand the implications of creating cultural history through storytelling.

Area for conversation and art making

Nothing is an isolate, nothing stands by itself, it’s all embedded deeply in all kinds of other things.

H: DO YOU HAVE A MOTTO OR GUIDING PHILOSOPHY?

K: “Be here now.” That has been my guide all my life. Be precisely, exactly in this moment. I have great confidence.

H: WHAT PERSONAL QUALITIES HAVE HELPED YOU ACHIEVE YOUR GOALS?

K: Imagination is the strongest suit. Resilience is a really important quality. If I can cultivate a certain degree of personal resilience, I can lend you some when you need it. And you can lend it back to me when I need it.

H: WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST PROFESSIONAL CHALLENGE?

K: I don’t do well in competitive environments.

H: WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR BIGGEST REWARD?

K: I’ve seen the healing capacity of art-making. That is the reason I do all of the things that I do.

H: WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE YOUNG ARTISTS OR CREATIVES?

K: Live creatively. Be creative in everything you do. What you wear, how you eat, how you decorate your room, what you decide you are going to do with your life. Make art every day.

When a problem is presented and your first instinct is to run, stand there for a second, and think of another option. Re-scripting in the moment is a creative option you have.

On Mastery and Breadth in a Creative Practice

Innovative architecture requires masterful skills as well as a breadth of knowledge about social context, human behavior, and structural issues. (Walt Disney Concert Hall, Los Angeles)

Whether to specialize and focus on mastery, or to seek breadth and explore multiple directions, is a recurring issue in a creative practice. Valid arguments are made for both approaches.

Musicians spend hours practicing to attain skills.

Mastery is valued for the obvious growth of skills that come with ongoing attention over a sustained period of time. Creative practices improve in quality in this way. We hear that Mastery takes at least 10,000 hours. That is a lot of time and attention. Nuance and subtlety become more pronounced with advanced skills. A certain level of functional skill is needed before one can achieve results that transcend the ordinary. Without time invested pushing development of manual, visual, and conceptual skills, we are unlikely to achieve a level of proficiency that will carry our work beyond the obvious. Distractions with different media, or other creative directions, can dilute our rate of growth.

Mastery of wine making includes years of repetition and skill development

In addition, time with our area of expertise is required to be able to envision work that explores complex concepts. Intellectual concerns, context, and content can be developed once we surpass the need to explore basic “how to” skills. We learn to “think in paint”, for example, before being able to ponder and push to complex personal or social concerns that are expressed through the medium of paint.

But, breadth of experience, with multiple media or directions of creative exploration, has inherent growth value as well. This type of experimentation develops an understanding of the numerous ways to approaching a question or problem. What some might dismiss as “aimless wandering” along the journey is not a waste of time. Wandering helps us see options, understand the limits of one medium or direction, and become aware of what other choices might offer. Each direction “Informs” others, they are often not completely distinct. The possibilities and implications of a solution may be impacted in ways that someone with more versatile experience can anticipate. In addition, there is a flexibility of thinking that comes with an understanding of various solutions.

Las Setas de Sevilla, another example of innovative architecture that results from exploring new directions.

One of the hallmarks of a creative mind is the ability to combine unrelated thoughts, solutions, and ideas into new ways of approaching a problem.  Without an understanding of diverse approaches it is rare for “unrelated solutions” to come together in our thought process. The more we know about more things, the more likely we are to have innovative ideas. These ideas contribute to new and exciting solutions. For example, a scientist’s lifetime of research may result in a discovery that finds application in unforeseen ways. Two seemingly disconnected directions converge. It is the justification of “research for research’s sake”.

Innovations in clothing design, and creative display design, at Los Angeles Contemporary Museum of Art.

Balance over time, defined individually, seems to be the answer. The learning process requires phases of heightened inquiry, immersion in skills development, time for evaluation, followed by renewed inquiry. This leads to mastery. However, the creative process, which often mirrors the learning process, requires pursuit of tangents, asking seemingly “unrelated” questions, trying something new, asking “What if…”, and the freedom to ponder how things might be changed. This leads to innovation, and new solutions.

Creative use of space, light, form, and structure at Sagrada Familia by Gaudi.

While working with creative individuals I see both impulses at work. There is a rhythm of intense focus in a given direction toward skill development, balanced by new interests and questions from surprising directions. As you develop your creative journey embrace both, and listen to a voice that suggests exploring something new. 

Creativity Interview: Stephanie Balzer, Non-Profit Coach, and Writer/Poet

Stephanie is the Co-founder of “Mission” which provides executive and team coaching for nonprofits and mission-driven companies. She was previously an executive and/or director for organizations such as Philanthropic Communications and Development for the University of Nevada, Las Vegas; The Drawing Studio in Tucson; and VOICES Community Stories.

Educated as a writer and poet, Stephanie is supportive and grounded in her work as an executive. When faced with multiple challenges she guides organizations with insight into the “big picture”. Thoughtful about her creative life, she is attentive to her creative practices which now include the visual arts. Her responses are candid and show a creative person grappling with issues faced by many creative people such as deep loss, life changes, and disconnection with your creative energy.

H: WHAT IS YOUR BACKGROUND AND TRAINING FOR YOUR CREATIVE PRACTICE?

S: I really wanted to pursue Architecture. I wasn’t brave enough to do it. OR I was intuitive enough to know that wasn’t going to be my path. Either way, I didn’t. 

I kept taking English classes, Literature and Writing, because I enjoyed them and I was good at them. I was interested in all of it. In documenting real stories, the real world, in the Poetic expression of poetry and other art forms. So my formal University training ended up being in English.

I literally just fell into a job at a newspaper. I walked in to buy the “Business Journal” in Phoenix and they said, “Are you looking for a job? Our receptionist is going on maternity leave, do you want to answer the phones for 2 months?

Stephanie’s playful side shows in a collaborative collage project done with family at Thanksgiving.

Near the completion of that period I went to the editor and said, “I think I can do this.” He gave me a paid Research Intern position. [After] about 8 months I said, “You know I think I can write articles.” I’d never taken a journalism class. I had no background in business. All I knew was English, English Literature. And they said, “Alright, our Healthcare Reporter is going on maternity leave, do you want that job for 2 months?” So I jumped in, and mimicked the people around me, writing stories and messing them up. I just learned it on the job. 

I continued to write pieces that were recognized. Feature pieces, profiles. So I still was getting the recognition, or confidence, that this was something I could do. 

I was part of a series about: How did you change your life after 9/11?  I started thinking about what did I really want to do? What is my Path? I was interested in the news, but it wasn’t what drove me. 

So I got accepted to the University of Arizona MFA program in Poetry. I loved it. I just felt like I was with “my people”. Thinking differently, being challenged in a different way, was amazing. I just loved my life, the freedom that gave me! 

I didn’t love teaching, but I really like Systems. I think that’s why I liked being a reporter. Because it’s about how things got put together, how things happened, how they could be better.  A lot of it was about systems thinking. I decided to go into Non-Profits.

What I am discovering about my Creativity, is that I really like building complex systems. I think that is what I liked about writing, and what I like in Non-profit work. How do we build a better world? How do we build a better organization to serve people? Reporting let me start to look at what the world needs for systems.

H: CAN YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR CREATIVE PROCESS?

S: I have a regular meditation practice, a morning routine to ground and root, that’s important to me as a person.

Stephanie describes the sense of confusion that can accompany a creative practice.

For a lot of years my Creative Process involved my creative partner. He died 5 years ago. We were so intellectually in sync. We were very good at challenging each other, and supporting each other.

When he died, I thought, “I don’t know how to be a creative person without him”. Even though, of course, I was before. But it really shifted. My pattern shifted. My rhythm shifted. When he died, like half of my creativity felt like it didn’t have an anchor.

After he died I became more interested in Narrative, and how narratives work and how art forms work. I got more interested in art forms that have a broader and more contemporary cultural influence.

Writing poetry feels like making art to me. Where as I am still struggling with making narratives or these other things. Journalism just flowed. Poetry just flowed. These other things I’m trying to do now…. It feels…it does not flow…it feels like a labor. Editing the problems seems really hard, not creative and fun.

H: WHAT ARE YOUR MOST SIGNIFICANT SOURCES OF INSPIRATION?

S: I think it’s shifted over time. I think this new era of storytelling television has had a significant influence on me. Attending live poetry readings, or hearing, or entering any kind of art form fuels it for me.

I don’t know that I have the inspiration right now. Sort of stabbing out and nothing really holds. Except for Big Vision, and my Administrative side has been a big inspiration: building an Organization has been more of an inspiration.

H: CAN YOU TALK ABOUT LIFE TRANSITIONS AS PART OF A CREATIVE JOURNEY? 

S: When I was a poet, I thought that was an identity. I was a “Poet”, not a person who writes poetry. I’ve started to slough that off, that idea that I want to hold onto a certain identity that closely. But also sometimes those identities fuel our creativity. When we can identify as an artist, or as a poet, or a writer. I guess I identify more as a writer than a poet now.

Another piece from her family’s collage.

I think learning to flow with them, seeing them all as fluid and connected has some value. I think it is a Creative Process in itself, navigating all of that.

H: HAVE YOU EXPERIENCED “CREATIVE BLOCK”? IF SO, WHAT FORM DOES IT TAKE? HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH IT?

S: I went through a phase where I really wondered, “Why am I doing this? Why am I spending my time writing? Of all the things I could do in the world, why do I want to do that?” I gave myself permission not to do that. Which was really scary because it had been so connected to my identity.

I tried to be open and see what other paths there might be. I gave myself permission to channel it in other things that felt productive. I realized I might have to give myself permission to open up a lot more broadly, and think about Creativity in different ways. Or think about myself, and my personal role, in different ways. 

H: WHAT PERSONAL QUALITIES DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE THAT HELPED YOU ACHIEVE YOUR CREATIVE GOALS? 

S: I’m very curious, and open. I’m interested in a lot of different things. I’m very disciplined. I can sit for 5 hours and just be in my own world. Dedicating time to it. I’m not afraid to learn as I go. Half of it is just showing up every day and staying calm. The rest will figure itself out. 

I’m very associative, that served my writing. I can work with metaphor well. I put pieces together unexpectedly, quickly.

H: WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE OTHER ARTISTS/CREATIVES?

S: A lot of the time it’s going to feel like you are in the weeds. Just keep going. Even if you’re not writing every day, or even if you question. Keep going! Being in the weeds is part of it. Questioning it is part of it. You’re going to come out of it if you keep going. Don’t give up.

And find: You have to study and learn. [There’s] the the “Myth of Talent”. Break that down, start reading, start learning, do your scales, do your exercises. We all have to learn it,  you have to work at it.

Stephanie’s website is www.stephaniebalzer.com

Being a Novice

The events of the past three years have shaped many of us into different versions of ourselves. Over this time I rediscovered the joy of being a novice in a new discipline.

Early leaf piece with Hummingbird nest, 2021

During the cautious re-opening of life after Covid shutdowns in mid-2021 I was seeking creative exploration. Painting was, and continues to be, a major part of my life, but I was restless after months of isolation. 3 dimensional form became of interest, as did the learning gained from having a teacher and being with fellow students. I was ready to try something new. A ceramic studio* near my house offered lessons. I signed up, with no experience. A complete novice.

Learning form, handles, structure 2021

Being a novice is an extremely valuable experience. It is humbling, and exhilarating. It is a period of intense growth where mistakes are expected, and new skills developed. This is a freeing, and frustrating, part of the creative process. As a novice there were seemingly limitless new directions, and I found that at times I lost sight of which questions to ask. Everything needed exploring, and presented new problems to solve. And yet, each solution provided a sense of satisfaction. It kept me coming back for more. A novice is on the edge of being overwhelmed most of the time. The more you learn, the more you realize there is to know.

Learning surface treatment from an article by Dawn Candy, 2022

In this stage a new world opened up. Ideas began to form, and new concepts fed my curiosity. Ceramics were viewed with expanded appreciation as I discovered previously unseen details, and began looking at new sources of inspiration. Gaining new skills is a clumsy and yet gratifying adventure. There is an expanding appreciation of the work of experienced practitioners in the field. Skill-based questions such as “What makes a good result?” “Why do certain techniques produce better results?” and “How did they do that?” became more informed. 

Plaque, 2022

At the same time, there was a growing appreciation of the aesthetic, history, and philosophy associated with my new endeavor. I began to ask, “What defines quality work?” “What is the context of my discipline?” and “Where do I want to take my work?”. My visual aesthetic for ceramic has changed over the past year and a half. During this time I have explored many directions that developed both skills and visual insight. I am increasingly aware of the complexity and interaction of form, function, surface treatment, and spatial relationships. The more I learn about the nuances of these facets, the more I appreciate successful pieces, and am able to define for myself what represents interesting results. Currently, I am drawn to curved and organic forms and surface design.

Learning the firing process with my home kiln, 2022

Understanding where your own work fits within a larger field of study, and considering the purpose and goals for your work, also helps to define your approach. Increased exposure to other’s work helps us find like-minded people, and formulate a direction of inquiry. Resources for exposure to experts in your field may include museums, histories, lectures, websites, classes etc. Seek them out, one thing often leads to another.

Current piece in progress, experimenting with form, finish, and surface design, 2022

Eventually the lessons, research, and skills begin to come together in more sophisticated work and more informed development of personal goals. This is where we begin to leave the truly novice stage, and move toward the roll of practitioner. I continue to be challenged by both technical and aesthetic issues, but am feeling a growing confidence, which is gratifying and helps me stay with the journey.

Current piece in progress, 2022

The novice process applies in any new field. Creatively entering business, science, the arts, etc. leads to vulnerability, excitement, and a quest for knowledge. It feeds growth, expression, and discovery.  This immersion makes being a novice an extremely energizing and fulfilling stage. It is one of the cornerstones of the creative process. As we enter a new year, I encourage you to experiment with being a beginner. 

Three pots, early efforts with the Slip Trailing technique, 2022

*Many thanks to the generous instructors and students at the Tucson Clay Arts Center for their help with my journey.

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Creative Retreat

Ocean study; watercolor

Recently I created an Art Immersion experience for myself. Immersion in a creative practice facilitates personal growth and artistic exploration, allows for the flow of ideas in unplanned directions, and provides time for making a body of work. My goal was to create plenty of time to paint without limitations on subject matter, style, or medium. I wanted to reconnect with the joy of creating. To have time where painting and art were my primary activity, but with enough other things to explore to keep my mind fresh and active. A time with limited outside pressures.

Tide coming in, June; Watercolor

For four and a half weeks I lived by the ocean in southern California. Distractions were limited, other than those I chose for myself, and there was an abundance of inspiration.

Rocks at the jetty, July; Watercolor

I am an “ocean” person. Ocean time is always treasured. It is where I center myself, and find peace. It inspires my creative soul. As a result it was a perfect place for me to focus on my art practice.

In the field, portable supplies

While planning my stay I thought a lot about what supplies to bring. I wanted only the essentials, but enough to provide flexibility. I brought art supplies allowing me to work in watercolor, oil, or acrylic, depending on which media resonated. A few books on art, other inspirational materials, and a list of museums, galleries, and possible places of inspiration were gathered. I researched art styles in the area, located design and architectural places of interest, as well as nearby Botanical gardens.

I expected to work mostly in oil and cold wax, in an abstract style. Surprisingly, I did very little of that. Sketching, primarily in watercolor, and overwhelmingly focused on realism resonated with my location and mindset. Watercolor’s portable nature was perfect at the beach or on a hike overlooking the ocean. 

Painting on site

There is an immediacy about painting on site that provides impressed memories and visual nuances about the subject. Sights, sounds, temperature, and smells create a palpable impact. Watercolor is forgiving, and comes fairly naturally to me. It allowed me to concentrate on learning about the ocean as subject matter, and express the “Water-ness” of the subject with a liquid medium. It is a “quick” medium so I was able to create a new painting each day.

South End Strands Beach, June; Watercolor

Upon arrival I began a practice of painting the ocean or beach every day. In the beginning I focused on what it is about the water that makes it look and “read” like the ocean. I walked, observed, and painted at various times of day, in different types of weather, lighting, tidal levels, and currents. I watched the tide pools and rock formations influence the flow of water. Waves have shape, light, colors, values, and motion. The more I looked, the more I saw; the more I painted, the better I was able to interpret what I see onto paper. 

Kelp, Oil and cold wax

Initially the exercise of simply understanding the look of the ocean was consuming. Over the weeks I found myself increasingly thinking about more abstract concepts, such as: the visual movement of light and form, the description of “mood”, and how to express how I feel about the ocean. Some of this was developed in a few small, abstract oil studies.

Study, Receding fog bank, July; Watercolor

Over the weeks the ocean and atmosphere changed. When I arrived it was the middle of “June gloom”. A delight. The overcast, cool, foggy mornings and cloudy days were respite from the heat and sun I left in Tucson. However, it was challenging to paint such different lighting, and islands that disappeared while I was working. In July the mornings began as cool and lightly overcast, then became sunny. The tone and look of my paintings changed in response. 

Wave study, July; Watercolor

This retreat was a time for focused artistic exploration of subject, concept, and expression. Ideas changed and developed. I looked at a lot of art in museums and galleries. I reconnected with my past as an artist, returning to my original medium: Watercolor. I hope that this renewed energy and connection to a creative practice guides me as I explore future work. I am inspired, observing more, and feel connected to my identity as a creative person. 

Sunny Morning, Salt Creek beach, Watercolor

For anyone considering a similar artistic retreat I recommend the experience. Consider your goals, research and choose a destination that resonates with you personally. Once on the retreat, allow for change and flexibility, and open yourself to what the experience has to offer. 

Finding Time for a Creative Practice

Tree Study, pencil

I teach Creative Expression sessions at a destination health and wellness resort in Tucson. These are individual sessions, focused on the unique needs of each guest. We discuss their creative life, and hopes and goals for the same. We consider their personal life demands, creative interests, and past creative activities as we explore options for a visual arts practice or experience. These guests come from all kinds of professions and backgrounds, and are generally very successful in many aspects of life.

Tree Study

One interesting facet of this job is seeing the drive humans have toward creativity. These are people actively seeking ways to enhance creativity in their everyday lives. They describe a longing to explore imagination, to connect more closely with their internal and external world, and to express themselves in fresh ways. Most lack formal art training, and often see that as a barrier to using the visual arts. With support they begin to explore the many, varied ways an art practice can occur.

Occasionally I work with trained artists who have lost their way over the years. They often describe a deep sense of loss about their disconnection with a creative life. 

Personal considerations vary from those who have just retired or lost a spouse and want to use their days in a personally fulfilling way, to those in the middle years of raising children, working full time, and running a household-with or without help. The amount of available time varies, and often drives the type of creative activity that is reasonable to attempt.

Tree study, pencil

Remember to set yourself up for success. If time is limited, space is tight, and days are full it is best to pay attention and choose accordingly. A short, portable, quick practice may best support your creative drive and not lead to further frustration.

Tree Studies, pencil with watercolor

Years ago, while working full time as an attorney, raising two pre-teens, and running a household I still had a personal need to engage in an art practice. There simply was almost no time. My solution was to carve out 10 minutes a day, with a sketchbook and a pencil. Every day I stopped at a park on my way to the office and drew a tree, a different tree each day. Eventually my daily tree drawings filled an entire sketchbook. Many days I simply drew what I could see from the parking lot. It was not a glamorous art practice, and was not shared with anyone. 

However, that simple art practice provided several important things. First, I had private time for myself and my art life. I was an artist, each day, for a specific amount of time. It provided a quiet transition space between family and the office. Drawing provided an opportunity to focus intently on something outside of my head, turned off the list of things to do, and allowed a few minutes of what is called “flow”. Ultimately I got really good at SEEING and drawing many different kinds of trees! I had time to experiment with drawing styles, and when I looked at art I felt engaged with other artists.

Foliage study, pencil

I interviewed a woman, Norma Hendrix, who was running a busy non-profit arts organization and was also a part-time musician. She described a similar practice. Every morning, before getting out of bed, she opens her sketchbook and does one blind contour drawing. She gets out of bed having connected with her personal art life at least once each day.

There is tremendous value in even the most limited kind of regular creative practice. I believe those tree drawings were a vital part of my mental health, and my development as an artist. I encourage anyone longing for a creative practice with limited time and resources to create a practice that is sustainable in even the smallest ways.

(All drawings by the author)

Tree Study, pencil

Creativity Interview: The Value of Creative Synergy, Lea and Jim McComas

Jim and Lea McComas at home with their two dogs, and her art quilt behind

Synergy: the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects. (Oxford Languages, online dictionary)

Jim and Lea at the Depot Art Gallery in Littleton, CO where Jim won Best of Show in the All Colorado Art Show with “Reflection”

I first interviewed this married couple in 2016. It is the only time I have interviewed two people at the same time, and I admit I was skeptical. However, this extraordinary couple has a creative dynamic that enhances and balances both of their work. That dynamic was on display throughout the interview, and as I have gotten to know them I have seen it ever since. They provide enriched perspectives and obvious mutual support, with ongoing encouragement when challenges arise.

Lea with her long-arm sewing machine, and an art quilt hanging in her studio

Lea McComas is a fiber artist (and Special Ed teacher) who has received national and international acclaim for her artwork.  She teaches fiber art workshops, and has written a book on her complex quilting and thread rendering techniques. Jim is a fine art oil painter focusing primarily on the human figure. He is also a retired pilot. They live high in the mountains above Golden, Colorado on several acres of land.

Jim at work, using Lea as his model

Over the years we have become friends. On my recent visit to Denver they invited me to see Jim’s new studio building. The space, a renovated barn, is on several acres of wooded land adjacent to their home property. Jim is working intensely on his oil paintings, recently beginning a new series inspired by a solo ballet performance he attended. He is winning awards and recognition for his work.

Jim’s new painting studio, studies for the ballet series on the easel

Last fall the Clinton Library invited Lea to create a quilt as part of an exhibit commemorating women’s right to vote. Her detailed piece is 8’ x 13’ and features figurative depictions of significant women throughout the history of America.

Lea was recently interviewed by the Denver Art Museum. A portion of her commissioned quilt, partially completed, is visible behind her. 

What continues to strike me about this couple is the creative energy and encouragement they provide each other. They offer genuine enthusiasm, insights, and admiration. Deep discussions about artistic goals, techniques, and resources are a core part of their marriage. They prefer to work nearby each other, and plan to expand the studio to allow her to work in that building as well. “We actually like each other” they agree.

There is a palpable energy when they interact. Each has studied art, art making, and their specific craft with a passion that drives success. Neither has an art degree, but both are extremely well educated in art history, techniques, and principals. They provide honest, thoughtful critique for each other through the creative process, and can rely on their feedback to be deeply considered, and part of an ongoing conversation about their work.

Not all artists are married to someone who shares their passion with equal intensity. However, seeing the value Lea and Jim provide each other is a strong reminder of the power of synergistic energy derived from interactions with other creative people. Creative energy grows when it is nurtured by other creative energy.  This is the nature of synergy. We see it over and over in the support groups creative people maintain around their discipline. Musicians play together, artists develop painting and critique groups, scientists attend conferences of like-minded researchers. 

View from the McComas property.

Research shows that creative ideas commonly grow in small, consistent steps that build on tiny improvements on existing ideas. Rarely do they bolt into existence from a vacuum. When we discuss our ideas with other supportive and knowledgeable creatives we increase the likelihood of inventive ideas arising. Ongoing conversations help us advance a concept or idea, and allow us to realize that at some point actual progress has been made.

Lea and Jim at the studio, doors open, relaxing under the stars. Lea’s quilts on display.

If you are not in a personal relationship with a co-creative, you can surround yourself with peers. Form your own group, offer support, and be open to receiving support from like-minded individuals. The dynamic that results intensifies everyone’s creative energy, and offers much needed support when creativity is strained. Be cautious when selecting these people. They must be willing, and able, to provide feedback and comments that are trained enough to be of value, honest without being hurtful, and knowledgeable enough about your personal goals to help you on your creative journey. But well-chosen, supportive peers can help you advance your efforts and encourage you to persist when the going gets tough.